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Valmir

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Beitrag 7652127 , Neu in Modelraketen [Englisch] [Alter Beitrag24. April 2022 um 22:57]

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Hi everyone.
I'm Valmir, a 30yr old Architect living in Berlin for a while.

My german is C1, but when it comes to Legal language, it's nearly impossible. So here I am, to ask the same questions almost every neuling asks here.

As a model rocketeer, I built my first (passive controlled)rocket (in Germany)with the below specs to start with:

Length: 935mm
Diameter: 50mm
Stability: 3.56 cal
Weight: 190g (without Motor)
Motor: C6-3
Recovery System: Nylon Parachute
Apogee: 36.7m

All tests, parachute deployment, static fire etc, went well. Now I have only to fly it.
And as usual, I'm here to ask about regulations.

I read a lot about P2 Schein but this classifies as Klasse T1 so I'm here to ask about Location and Permits in Berlin:
- I found that Teufelsberg (nearby) is a good area to fly (based on drone maps), any ideas?
- Do I need to inform Luftkontrolle, and/or apply for a permit as they do for drones?
- Any info on not getting caught and fined would be helpful.

Next step after this, the idea was to fly it with a D9/12 motor (about 100-120m), I'm assuming different regulations apply there. Info for this would also help.

Thank you all in advance.

Good in German, but not so good!
Oliver Arend

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Oliver Arend

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Beitrag 7652128 [Alter Beitrag25. April 2022 um 16:04]

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Zitat:
I built my first (passive controlled)rocket (in Germany)with the below specs to start with:

Length: 935mm
Diameter: 50mm
Stability: 3.56 cal
Weight: 190g (without Motor)
Motor: C6-3
Recovery System: Nylon Parachute
Apogee: 36.7m

I'm assuming by "passive controlled" you mean that it simply has fins attached to the body tube, but no other form of control or guidance (like thrust vector control, movable fins, ...)?

Flying a 190 g rocket on a C6-3 doesn't work, it will be too slow off the pad for the airflow to be strong enough to provide stability via the fins, and any noticeable wind will make the rocket go off course very quickly or even be unstable. Also, the parachute will probably be ejected too late and the rocket will be damaged.

190 g is a reasonable weight for a Klima D9 motor though which you can easily buy in Germany: https://www.raketenmodellbau-klima.de

Yes, you don't need a P2/§27 license or any form of permit (because it has less than 20 g of propellant) to fly the rocket except permission from the owner of the land you fly from. If you fly above 120 m, you need a Kenntnis-/Kompetenznachweis, but the details escape me because we are in a transition period from national to European regulations and I no longer live in Germany and haven't kept up to date. I hope somebody else will chime in. If you stay below 120 m and 250 g takeoff mass, you're good to go. And of course you need insurance, your regular liability insurance will most likely not cover model rockets.

The airspace situation in and around Berlin is complicated, we have a few people from Berlin here who will certainly be able to help you out with that.

Oliver
AchimO

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Beitrag 7652130 [Alter Beitrag25. April 2022 um 20:07]

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Hi Valmir,

welcome to this forum! I am living in Berlin and so maybe I can tell you a little bit more about the situation here.

Unfortunately Berlin and even more some area around Berlin, especially in the south because of the airport location, is controlled airspace. Details can be taken from a so-called ICAO map, that is also used by pilots. From legal point of view this leads to the situation that you are not allowed to start a rocket in Berlin at all. There is, however, a statement from the Deutsche Flugsicherung (DFS) that flying up to 50 m would be tolerated in this case. Of course, that is not good news for us. In fact it makes it impossible to fly rockets.

A few years ago I started water rockets here, however, at that time the regulations were different.

Therefore I fly only on rocket events, which are organized by the relevant rocketry clubs. These are mainly "Arbeitsgemeinschaft Modellraketen (AGM)", "Solaris" and others. I am a member of AGM. AGM organizes events in two places in the north of Leipzig, also one near Bremen. There are many more rocket events, which are announced here in the forum. To be honest, there is another rocket club in Berlin called DERA. They organize events in Peenemünde; maybe you have heard about that location.

On the start page of this forum you see the announcement for the RJD 2022, which will take place in Roitzschjora, north of Leipzig. To participate you have to register. To start a rocket you need to have an insurance including also model rockets. You may buy a guest insurance there.

In the beginning ignore the "P2-Schein" issue. I don't have a P2-Schein either. P2-Schein holders are somewhat privileged, as there was no course to get one for years. The P2-Schein issue is now no longer a big one, as you may get rocket motors to fly on rocket events up to a propellant mass of 150 g, which are no longer classified as explosives. Rather than those Arotech motors are classified as pyrotechnic articles.

As I said already, on such a rocket event you can fly cockets with a propellant mass of up to 150 g, also applying to clusters. There is, however, another limit: start mass of rocket, i.e. including motors, parachute(s) etc. over 250 g. This is not the case for your rocket even if you fly a D motor.
So, for rockets over 250 g you need to get a license after a successful online training and test on the website of the LBA (Luftfahrtbundesamt).

I hope this answers most of your questions. In case you have more, please ask.

Regards, Achim

Schneiden, schleifen, schrumpfen, kleben: das ist Wara-Bauers Leben,
Danach schleifen, laminieren: So kann dem Drucktank nichts passieren!

Oder wie die Lateiner sagen: laminare necesse est!
Valmir

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Beitrag 7652151 [Alter Beitrag28. April 2022 um 12:51]

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Hi guys.
Thanks for all the answers. Seems like Rocketry in Berlin is not a good idea after all. that's very sad though.
Anyway, I'll be keeping an eye on events and maybe get to meet some people and have a chat to look into possibilities closer than Leipzig and on a non-event basis!

Thanks guys.

Good in German, but not so good!
AchimO

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Beitrag 7652152 [Alter Beitrag28. April 2022 um 17:41]

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Hi,

other places maybe are not much better. So "flying in the wild" is caused by the latest EU regulations only allowed up to 120 meter, which is not much for a rocket.

Regards, Achim

Schneiden, schleifen, schrumpfen, kleben: das ist Wara-Bauers Leben,
Danach schleifen, laminieren: So kann dem Drucktank nichts passieren!

Oder wie die Lateiner sagen: laminare necesse est!
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